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Drought, Bans and Civics
Submitted by NY2TX on Thu, 07/02/2009 - 4:42am.
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This to me is a question of civic duty and following vs fluanting of rules.
While Austin may not be as severe as San Antonio, all of South Texas has been experiencing a drought. It is expected that the Edwards Aquifer in San Antonio will drop below the magic 640' this weekend and SAWS will declare Stage 3 water retrictions. This will mean that you are only allowed to water your lawn once every two weeks (except if you use a hand held hose)
Related to this is the ban on aerial fireworks this weekend (those flying above 16' ft), except in designated safe zones.
Aerial fireworks that go higher than 16 feet have been banned in Bexar County because the hot and dry weather has left brush and grass a virtual tinderbox. Fireworks that stay on or close to the ground are still for sale but they must be used in a designated safe zone.
So, here is the question. If you find a neighbor watering his lawn and wasting water, flaunting the regulations while everyone else is following them, do you blow the whistle?
If someone in your neighbood is firing off sky rockets on the night of the 4th, endangering your house and everyone else's, do you blow the whistle?
In either case, do you go to the offending party first and politely ask them to stop and consider others before blowing the whistle? Consider that in the case of the fireworks ban, your neighbor may well have been imbibing.
Just wondering.
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It depends on your neighbors, your relationships with them, and the extent of the offense.
For example, at the moment, I live in a bad neighborhood with bad neighbors. One of my relatively-new next-door neighbors frequently likes to throw parties, sometimes on weeknights, throwing many half-empty beer cans over the fence and into my yard, playing loud music until well past sunrise just feet from my master bedroom. When this first interfered with my sleep, I would get out of bed, put on my bath robe and slippers, lean over the fence and ask the partiers to keep it down so I could sleep (and be ready to work the next day). I have since moved my bed to the other side of my house. When they're loud late at night, I call the police, sometimes every hour until an officer instructs them to stop. If they continue, I think I have a good basis to sue seeking injunctive relief, and monetary damages if the peace is further breached.
Clearly, the above situation detracts from my life severely (and frequently) enough to warrant blowing the whistle. Firing off skyrockets on the 4th might; if I saw a neighbor light one that ignites a house on fire, I'd certainly come forward. (Though it would likely be accidental, the person should be held liable for the outcome of his/her actions.) A neighbor wasting water probably wouldn't cause me to tattle, unless/until it started flooding my property.
- John
One of my next door neighbors threw a party a while back... it was pretty loud and there were a lot of cans and cups in my yard... I kicked all of them back over into the neighbors yard but I didn't call the police. I was ready to handle it if any of the party goers got out of hand, but I won't elaborate more than that.
Agreed
Thankfully we just had two days of much needed rain because I'm not in the city limits and I plan to set off some fireworks on Saturday...
Anyway, I'm not one to complain unless its something really major.
"I'm not one to complain..."
Y'okay.
But if you were regulated by the rules, would you follow them?
We've been under county wide burn bans up here before, and I didn't set off any fireworks even though I had them. Other people in the neighborhood or in the one next to mine which also has a city ordinance prohibiting fireworks did not abide by the bans, but I did not call the police on them.
I guess if my house (with a bone dry roof) in the line of fire of a skyrocket, I won't be too pleased. I'll be less pleased if I watch it land on or near my house or roof. I'll be even less pleased if there is a fire anywhere near my house because of the illegal launching of high flying fireworks.
No elaboration.
I should clarify... I'm outside the city, there is no ordinance that says I can't shoot fireworks as long as there is no county burn ban. The people on the other side of my back fence are in the city, and they are not allowed to shoot fireworks. They do anyway, especially on Cinco De Mayo and other Mexican/Hispanic holidays.
I've got an 8ft privacy fence and there are trees on the other side of it, so I really can't see anyone over there well enough to report anything but the general vicinity they are in, so I doubt calling the police would do much good. FWIW, if I call 911 I get Travis County Sheriff, they get Pflugerville PD. I'd have to look up Pflugerville PD's number to even be able to call them. Probably better to call the non-emergency number anyway unless a fire has been started.
I think that the point that Woody and I are making is that whether you or anyone else comes under the jurisdiction of a particular law or regulation or not, looking other way when someone else is flaunting the law or regulation is tantamount to break the law itself. Further, if the guy on the other side of the fence line is in the city and therefore under the jurisdiction of the law, and he breaks the rules, he could burn your house down with an errant rocket or fireworks. He could kill someone and why? To shoot off a rocket?
My opinion carries over to the water restrictions. Anyone not abiding by the regulaitons as water restrictions are put into place is taking future water out of my tap.
Short of climbing the fence there is not really a good way for me to see who on the other side of the fence is shooting fireworks. Saying that I'm guilty for not going out of my way to try to apprehend people for doing something that wouldn't even be illegal on my side of the fence seem to be a little bit of a reach to me. Given that fireworks are legal in my neighborhood and I knowingly live here, I kind of have to accept that risk.
Whether it comes from my neighborhood or the other doesn't really change much.
As for water restrictions, my brown yard will tell you that even w/o being under those restrictions I've been more than abiding by them. I'm just too lazy and cheap to bother watering the grass. I don't relish the idea of $100 water bills just to have a green yard like my neighbors seem to. Oh... I have to mow and edge less often this way too...
See Woody's post below for an enhanced point of view.
http://door64.com/blog/n/11110#comment-7356
I saw it. I don't believe that you can legally be held responsible for someone else's actions because you chose not to get involved. Last thing I need is to pick a fight with the neighbors... especially on holidays when they are likely drunk.
The bottom line is right now there is nothing legally that I could do to stop my neighbors on this side of the fence from shooting fireworks. And there is nothing practical that I can do about the people on the other side of the fence, as I've said before. Calling the PD probably just isn't going to do much good. The neighborhood on the other side of the fence is mostly illegals and the Pflugerville PD are mostly crackers like me that don't Habla. They generally seem to look the other way when it comes to that area (a trailer park) unless its something major because its probably a pain in the butt to find an Espanol speaking officer or just too much paperwork to deal with. And despite the signs around town (in English only) about the city's fireworks ban, if they enforce it, it doesn't show. I saw and heard plenty of fireworks from the incorporated areas the past few years on the major holidays. Maybe San Antonio or Austin PD are different about that but that doesn't affect me.
Then keep that garden hose handy.
For sure... Its always a good idea to anyway.
Keep that garden hose handy for when the neighbor shooting illegal fireworks lights up your roof.
And that would be different if one of my neighbors from this side of the fence did the same thing with legal fireworks?
"Argumentative, your honor."
Perry Mason
Oh great... now I've got the Ozzy song about Perry Mason stuck in my head...
"Who can we get on this case? We need Perry Mason"
No one directly said that you were legally responsible. But Woody is right IMO.
Correct: No statement about legal responsibility. OTH...
It is the duty of every citizen. Police, for example, can never "do their job" unless we (citizens) are very much involved.
If it's crime, report it. That's "our job."
William W. (Woody) Williams
Project Management Consultant
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w3src Consulting
OK, I now that you're not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but I guess the ? should be asked, "how many have turned someone in?" for doing something wrong.
The answer is that almost every single crime investigated by law enforcement is called in by someone.
Police rarely (traffic stops are the exception) ever catch anyone in the act.
It's not uncommon.
William W. (Woody) Williams
Project Management Consultant
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w3src Consulting
"How many have turned someone in" for doing something wrong?
I have (more than once). Does that make me a bad person? BTW, the last time was recently when someone I had almost just met asked me if I could help intro. him to people 'cause he "exported military stuff to Mexico."
If someone you saw but didn't report is responsible for burning a tract of land, a home or homes, or injury to a person or people because of using banned fireworks in a banned area, you are responsible as well. Responsible through omission of duty. It's hard to be a citizen.
Hard but true.
In some areas -- especially around San Antonio -- it is exactly like a "tinder box" and the slightest spark will start something uncontrollable in an instant. It's not just about good judgment in the handling of fireworks or choosing a good location. These things are not made by NASA and will go awry; outside of your control.
Good judgment, in this case, means skipping your personal fireworks parade this year. It also means protecting your property, your family, and perhaps your life by intervention (personally or through law enforcement) with anyone stupid enough to put their neighbors at risk.
Waiting for the fire to start,
William W. (Woody) Williams
Project Management Consultant
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w3src Consulting
I'm worried about leaving my home knowing that some of my neighbors will launch "rockets."
The two properties I own are both outside city limits. One southwest of Austin near Camp Ben McCulloch. The other in the Texas panhandle overlooking Palo Duro Canyon State Park. At the time of purchase they were both much more "remote" than they are now although the PDC property is still somewhat remote -- 20 miles to a gas station/convenience store, more for groceries and 45 miles into nearest town. People try to burn it down every year.
For over thirty years now, the celebration of the Fourth of July, for me and my family, has been tempered by the reality of people trying to burn us out. They don't think of it like that, but it happens all the time... dry years and wet years. It has happened multiple times; some came very (VERY) close. I was up on my roof with a hose on two occasions.
I have come to detest idiots and their fireworks. They do this every year on the 4th and again around Christmas. People may have a right to be stupid but they don't have a right to burn my family or neighborhood out of stupidity.
Stupidity remains legal. Fireworks are not legal in most places. Even stupid people understand and follow the law everyday.
I don't have to "explain" anything to them and won't. It's the law; it's well publicized; follow it. In areas where there are burn bans and fireworks ordinances, in my experience, law enforcement takes it seriously.
I will report it and report it with enough information for identification and arrest. If called on, I will testify in court. I can't cure stupidity but I can have them locked up where they don't harm the rest of us.
Where there's smoke, there's...
William W. (Woody) Williams
Project Management Consultant
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w3src Consulting
Texas Frontier Property Laws should apply, at least in my opinion.
If, some night, someone is launching rockets and they do or are likely to land and start a fire on your property, I think you would be justified in sniping them. Your bullet(s) crossing a property line would be a crime, but much less egregious than some idiots burning down your house. If you were tried (for anything) in such a situation and I was on your jury, I'd say you were justified.
- John
I love Texas!
Where there's smoke, there's...smoldering "meadow muffins" in cold weather?
Point is that I am supposed to go to my step daughter's house for the BBQ that I don't want at my house (just in case someone comes to see it for purchase on Sunday, I don't need 5 or 6 kids under the age of 12 running around with ketchup on their hands touching the walls).
"Stupid is as stupid does." I think Tom Hanks said that in a movie once.
Question is how far do you go to protect your property. This Texas after all, and not Long Island.
However where I differ with you is when you write, "Even stupid people understand and follow the law everyday." There seem to be alot of stupid (and smart) people who somehow do not believe that laws apply to them because, as the Church Lady used to say, "They're so special."
Quoting softwarejanitor: I don't believe that you can legally be held responsible for someone else's actions because you chose not to get involved.
To put this in a larger sense, should the US be held responsible when they don't get involved in another nations troubles?
Ever hear of Kitty Genovese? If not legally responsible, then morally reprehensible.
That "larger sense" become nonsense in this context ;~)
The laws of the United States do not extend beyond its borders. Ditto for other countries. There is usually a treaty violation or United Nations mandate (authority beyond our own laws) before intervention in other nations troubles becomes a national mandate. This is the case for declaring war as well.
However, there are few restrictions on people (citizens) getting involved in other countries troubles -- at least from the standpoint of US law. Lot's of folks were "involved" with the Spanish Civil War (Franco), as one example, and Cuba (Castro) was another. Jane Fonda, and others, traveled to and supported North Viet Nam as well. In fact Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, churches, and other organizations do this all the time. "Security" forces routinely engage in this kind of activity around the globe; some are US citizens. However, if a US citizen does something illegal under the laws of the other country and there is an extradition agreement in place, it could get ugly.
There are in fact many instances under particular circumstances where inaction or a "crime of omission" is punishable. "In the criminal law, an omission, or failure to act, will constitute an actus reus (Latin for "guilty act") and give rise to liability only when the law imposes a duty to act and the defendant is in breach of that duty." ~Wikipedia
Failure to disclose knowledge or suspicion of terrorist activity, terrorist funding, or money laundering is criminal under US law, as one example.
It doesn't apply like that in a case of "knowledge" of fireworks law crimes ;~) but it does for the person who is engaged in shooting fireworks. If a person sees their fireworks have started a fire and fails to report it or take other appropriate measures, they can be held liable for that (could be a felony) as well as the fireworks misdemeanor. There is precedent for this.
So... where in all this is "treat your neighbor as your self?" Why do we prefer to let Pretty Boy Floyd and John Dillinger hide in the basement instead of turning them over to authorities as the cold blooded killers they are?
Because we are morally and ethically challenged... dysfunctional. We don't want to "rat" on our buddies even when those buddies are burning down our house.
Grow up. Get real. This isn't high school any more.
Criminals are blood sucking leeches; parasites that prey on the weak and helpless; thugs who attack in the night and take the life from innocents.
Our willingness to act is the only roadblock to their dominion over us all. We citizens are the only bulwark against anarchy and chaos. If we won't stand for it, they can be stopped.
There is really no "gray" area in this argument.
Covering the gray,
William W. (Woody) Williams
Project Management Consultant
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w3src Consulting
Failure to disclose knowledge or suspicion of terrorist activity, terrorist funding, or money laundering is criminal under US law...yeah, that's true!
The fact that society is morally and ethically challenged is the problem. Wrong is wrong, and illegal is illegal. Otherwise, why have the words?
Personally I have a very narrow gray area in my life...too bad for people who have that broadband of gray.
Bald, gray and "robust."
Omission can be problematic. I think too many people are sympathetic to criminals, especially when the criminals are children, and that tacit acceptance of minor crimes merely emboldens criminals to commit greater crimes.
For example, my parents' friends took in a friend of their daughter, while they were both minors. The daughter's friend somehow managed to start stealing money from the family she was staying with, by getting her hands on an ATM card and PIN, if I remember correctly. After this was discovered, her parents were confronted, but pleaded for mercy, claiming that their daughter was a good kid, had never done anything like that before, and that it would never happen again.
Similarly, years earlier and when I was a child, there was another boy about my age who lived down the street and was left home alone while his parents both worked--a latchkey kid. In the afternoons after school, the boy had full run of the house, and got into the parents' things, including a stash of marijuana and a large-caliber revolver with ammunition. One afternoon, he decided that he didn't like a bunch of us other kids in the neighborhood and, with his toadie, lined us up in his front yard to execute us. We tricked him and all got away safely. News of this got back to his parents quickly, and they made the rounds making apologies to all the parents, promising no more trouble in exchange for leniency.
With both of these children, I got the impression that they had had similar problems before, but--that by having parents that could make their problems go away--they learned that they could get away with anything.
Having had and heard of experiences like this motivate me not to let actions like this slide, and to make police reports and to press charges. I hope sharing my story will convince readers to do likewise.
- John