Out of state recruiters
Do they even read profiles? I've complained about this before, but today I've gotten an especially large number of junk messages in my email... Seattle, Kansas City, Atlanta, etc... What about "First choice location: Austin, TX United States" and "Relocate: No" do they not understand? And most of these things are short (< a year) contracts when I've indicated I'm only interested in direct perm. This is mainly from Dice.com, I don't think my profiles are active on Monster or HotJobs anymore.
As few calls/emails as I get about local opportunities these days I'm thinking about just de-activating my profile.
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Being a Nationwide Recruiter
Being a Nationwide Recruiter myself, i have seen a huge lack of respect for candidates by Recruiters. Having your resume posted can hinder your chances for getting a Perm position because many large companies have sourcers who have already swept through the boards, and many will not even look at a candidate if they're posted online. You take the control of your career out of your hands by posting your resume. There are even many Evil Recruiters that send you resume to their clients in hopes that it will be a match WITHOUT your consent. then when you try to legitimately submit yourself they will not consider you, because then they would be obligated to pay a fee to the recruiter. Recruiters maintain "ownership" of your resume with their clients for a set number of months once they submit it on your behalf. So, it's best to network, Like you're already doing, and not be posted online. And ALWAYS keep track of when and where you allowed your resume to be sent. Also your resume in not deactive online unless you go in there and delete it permanantly. Hope this helped!
I've heard of some of those
I've heard of some of those techniques by unethical recruiters. One of the reasons why I've heard that some of them will send your resume w/o your consent is to try to block other recruiters and candidates so that they can present their preferred candidates. As I understand it that works because some clients will reject a double submitted candidate regardless of who submitted first.
Okay, I'm seriously
Okay, I'm seriously confused. Why would anyone refuse to touch a candidate who has posted online? I did my last two searches exclusively that way. (I didn't know how to do anything else.)
Hi Denise, Thanks for this
Hi Denise,
Thanks for this perspective.
Question for you: What constitutes a recruiter "owning" someone's resume? That is, what happens if Recruiter X obtained my resume (through either ethical or unethical means), and then after time I update my resume to (a) a different format, and/or (b) different content (added new work experience/skills/edu, revised previous work experience, etc.) I would imagine another Recruiter Y who gets hold of my updated resume isn't obligated to pay a fee to Recruiter X. What are the rules of engagement here? This seems like a subtlety but very likely to occur.
I'm asking because in another door64 post, the point was made that job seekers should be tailoring their resumes to a specific job applied for. That means every resume job seekers hand out is potentially unique. Is that a better deal for the job seeker in terms of what you wrote above?
Cheers,
Matt
Well if I were to submit a
Well if I were to submit a resume i received from an engineer to one of my clients, i have ownership of them with that company for 4 months (depending on our agreement with the company). So if another position comes up that the engineer hears about and tries to submit his resume to the compnay through another recruiter 1 month later, the company will see the candidate as still someone I submitted, therefore I will get credit, not the second recruiter.
Working with a couple of good recruiters is a good idea. Asking around to see who is a reliable recruiter is a good way to find one. Just like everything in a job search there are pros and Cons. I have found a few good candidates on boards, but they were noramlly sent to every company already, wether they wanted to be or not.
It IS good idea to tailor your resume for each position. but ultimately it is still the same candidate applying to the same company repeatedly. so the recruiter that most recently submitted the resume would get credit. An exception would be if they're submitting to different branches that dont acknowledge the submittals of other sites. There are some companies, like TI, that is considered submitted to all locations when submitted.
The best thing you can do is ask the recruiter questions.
My resume has been posted
My resume has been posted online for years... so if every employer already has it, then it obviously means my resume stinks because I'm not getting much play, at least not locally. I know the market is weak for developers in general, but perhaps if this theory is true I'm being shunned because I've been out there too much. I'm almost curious to see what would happen if I deleted myself from the online sites (HotJobs, Monster, Dice, etc), but I'm kind of afraid it wouldn't help.
As for working with a couple of recruiters, it just seems like these days they don't have the time for people who aren't 110% fits to something they are actively working on.
It really wouldnt help to
It really wouldnt help to delete it, because if they have already looked at it and swept it up its in their private database now.
Work with a local recruiter
Work with a local recruiter who you can meet face-to-face. I have accountability with and to my candidates who are local and with whom I have met. That being said, I also recruit nationally and have placed individuals whom I have not met in person. Generally then, I will schedule a number of phone calls, and if possible, video conferences. With technology today, it is much easier to do. So, if a national recruiter cannot get on the phone with you, don't work with them. If you don't feel like you are "connecting" with a recruiter, don't work with them. There are plenty of us out there.
And now for a commercial break: I am at www.higherout.com.
As for "ownership" of a resume. I have had situations where I contact a candidate with whom I have had a good working relationship for some time, we discuss a position to which I wish to submit him, and on doing so, find out that another recruiter submitted him without his authorization. Usually my candidate will find that the recruiter may have sent him an e-mail with a note about a job that sounds similar, but my candidate, not knowing or caring to know this recruiter, had not replied. My candidate will then send a letter to me, stating these facts, and I will present it to the client. In the best cases, the client will remove the unauthorized recruiter from the mix. You must make sure that you have documentation to support your case. If a battle starts up over the matter, the client will walk away from the candidate.
It is my proposition to the recruiting community that a recruiter-candidate connection is only exclusive to a specific employment opportunity (requisition). If I present a candidate to a project manager job at XYZ corporation and my competitor submits the same candidate to a systems analyst job at XYZ corporation 2 minutes later, I have no right to claim credit if the candidate gets the systems analyst job.
No, they don't read your
No, they don't read your resume or your profile. They use spiders and search tools, gather 100's of resumes that match 2 or 3 keywords, and spam everyone in the group.
I read profiles and resumes. If you've said 'no relocation,' I won't offer you a role in Spokane. If you've said "$90,000+," I won't offer you a job that pays $60K.
Last commercial: I am at www.higherout.com.
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I wish all recruiters worked
I wish all recruiters worked like that... It is frustrating having to turn away 90% of opportunities because of geography... then 90% of the remaining because they aren't a good technical fit... and then of the one or two that would be good to usually find out they don't pay enough...
Hmmm... Much food for
Hmmm...
Much food for thought here when dealing with any recruiter. (Local or National). It doesn't seem quite right that a recruiter can submit your name for a specific req# and 2 months down the road get credit if you're working with a different recruiter on a totally different req#. This type of "stelth" contract that only the recruiter and the hiring company know about seems like a set up for the poor job seeker who ultimtely may be blindsided and competely in the dark as to why the job just never seemed to work out.
Thanks
kmac
It is an employer's market
It is an employer's market and has been since 2001. When that is true, I think that the interests of the job seeker come in about last. We take what we can get because they get to make all the rules. With huge gluts of skilled and experienced people available if we don't like it they will just find someone else.
And on a less pessimistic note, I think a lot of the reason that prospective employers don't bother giving feedback anymore is that they may be afraid of lawsuits and also the simple fact that when they are dealing with so many agencies and candidates they just get overwhelmed and don't have time or can't keep track of who is who after a while.
Additional thought... I have
Additional thought...
I have worked with a number of recruiters over the last many months and now I have to wonder about why I interview well but for some reason the job just doesn't materialize at the end of the process. Could it be that I have fallen victim to some of these recruiter Machiavellian machinations, some of which have left me baffled and befuddled and ultimately quite jobless at the end of the day.
I do know that this thread and everyones candor has definitely opened up my eyes and I will proceed with more caution dealing with recruiters going forward.
Thanks
kmac
Well, to be fair, while it
Well, to be fair, while it isn't impossible, I wouldn't necessarily assume nefarious recruiters to be the source of trouble. Unfortunately competition is just really fierce out there with a large pool of highly talented candidates for every position. Even if you are an excellent match and interview well, it may still take time to find a job when you are up against a lot of other people are also extremely well qualified. By all means be careful, but mainly I think you've just got to be persistent.
If you are only interested
If you are only interested in local opportunities as a permanent employee, it's probably best to avoid being public on the job boards. Use them, but no public resume or profile. There are a lot of reasons behind that statement, many of them noted in previous posts to this thread.
Some, on the other hand, are interested in contract positions or opportunities in other / multiple locations. If you are interested in contract / travel, the situation is a bit more complicated and the job boards can play a big role. There's a lot of reasons behind that, too... most of which I've touched on previously.
William W. (Woody) Williams
Senior Project Manager
Software Development, PMO, IT Governance
My door64 Blog
enweave
I just posted questions for
I just posted questions for discussion in several LinkedIn groups and in the main "Answers" section to pull in responses from as many people as possible on this issue.
Some of you who are connected with me on LinkedIn will get a notification with the question. A great many recruiters were included as well as folks in HR, job seekers, consultants, and contractors -- a couple of hundred in all on the direct email and many more in the group discussions. Hope to have a good response (please participate) and gain knowledge.
I will gather and integrate responses and post results / conclusions -- will probably take 7 - 10 days but could be sooner.
I'll blog it when finished. Here's the question posted to the groups and in Answers.
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Public on Job Boards: Good or Bad?
The big job boards -- Monster, Dice, Career Builder, et al -- are popular. However, I've heard some very negative comments from consultants and recruiters about what happens when your resume is posted publicly on the big boards.
Submissions without permission leading to being "locked out" for consideration. "Ownership" of the resume with employers leading to battles between recruiting firms and rejection of candidates. And more...
What is your experience?
Advice?
Best Practices?
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Please participate if you are on LinkedIn. If you are not, respond here if you have not already. I will use the information in this post as well as that gathered from LinkedIn.
Thanks,
William W. (Woody) Williams
Senior Project Manager
Software Development, PMO, IT Governance
My door64 Blog
enweave