San Antonio-Austin (Austin-San Antonio) TechnoPlex?
Submitted by NY2TX on Sat, 09/20/2008 - 3:19pm.
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I'm pretty new to Texas, but I've already made the point that despite the price of gas, the distance between Austin and San Antonio isn't so great to dissuade me from commuting to do business.
Now, I mentioned this subject to one of my friends yesterday (Friday) after I heard the radio report. Personally, I believe that if the politicians try to make it happen, the chances of it happening go down. If the business communities do it less formally, it has a better chance of succeeding. It is the subject of an email I sent just this past Thursday (you know who you are).
I know some people already think that SA is deficient, but what I see is a diversity of technology sectors in San Antonio.
So, what's the consensus or feelings?
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I've never gotten the impression that San Antonio had much of a tech job market for the size city it is. Traditionally from what I've always heard San Antonio has a big military presence and a lot of food industry jobs. Right or wrong its generally viewed as being fairly poor and a very blue collar town. I've known a few techies over the years that lived in San Antonio (military spouse usually) that commuted to Austin to work.
Other than Rackspace, what are the major tech employers down there? I gather you are in the defense contracting business, I've seen a few jobs down there that require clearance, but not as many as I'd expect given the huge military presence in the area. I'm mostly just going on the number of recruiter calls and job postings I've gotten over the years. Not that it means much since I don't have a clearance, so I'm probably nowhere near the top of anyone's list for jobs that require one. In contrast one of the few defense industry contractors I know of in Austin is ATS. Is that what you are thinking about when you talk about diversity between the two?
The general impression is correct, but in generalizing, people tend to miss alot. It is also true that the density of companies is various sectors does not exist. But my sense is that Austin is "IT-centric" and is not diversified.
Again, these are my impressions. In many ways, your view is both accurate and is the problem at the same time. Most people, I gather even people from other parts of Texas, view San Antonio as the Spurs, the military and the Riverwalk. That's part of the problem.
There is a fairly well established defense group (Northrop-Grumman, L3. CACI, Denim Group, Karta plus small companies). The medical and biotech sector, while no where near what it is promoted to be, is expanding. There is a strong and growing (but somewhat off the radar screen), IT sector, with a concentration in IT security (AIA and NSA is here). There is a small manufacturing base. Additionally, with the consolidation of the military medical commands in SA, it has an influence of civilian sector jobs.
Yes, Rackspace is the "big dog" in town, and they are trying to position themselves as SA's version of Dell (why I don't know). But there is also a growing tech base. Other "major" tech employers? See above? But, considering what I have been reading about the Austin tech sector, what's happening up there? From appearances, it is shrinking (or compressing).
The point of the post is this. Austin is a small town by comparison, but has a known tech base that seems to be concentrated in IT/software. Your view of SA is somewhat accurate. More than twice the number of people, yet perceived to be a party town.
From what I can tell, many other previous attempts to create an Austin-San Antonio (or San Antonio-Austin) Technoplex like the "Corridor" and DCI have languished. The article from WOAI is very real. The question on the table is whether the business sector, rather than the politicians, is the way to explore the possibilities.
As for me, I don't know that I can be pidgeon holed as a defense person (I'm more of a generalist). Sure, my company is involved in defense contracting (one contract with maybe to get more work soon). But my company is developing a non-defense security technology as well. And maybe more importantly, I am somewhat of an "expert" in technology transfer and policy work (no, I don't want to work for a chamber of commerce or economic development organization - I tried to come to SA in a job like that but thankfully did not get it).
You are right about generalization. You are correct about Austin's job market being too dependent on the tech sector for most of its decent paying jobs. The problem with that is in times of contraction as we've been in an extended period of since 2001 (with a brief loosening between 2005-2007 and re-tightening this year) is that there isn't much else to fall back on, and the fall down in Austin is huge because the only middle refuge is mediocre paying government jobs and below that a lot of crappy, low-paying service industry jobs for those unlucky enough to fall through the cracks and have no safety net. It doesn't help that we've had a steady influx of refugees from places like the SV/SV Bay Area due to the comparative lower cost of living which has exascerbated the glut of educated, skilled and experienced candidates for each job opportunity.
As for any possibility of uniting a 'corridor' between Austin and San Antonio, I would agree that if it doesn't come from the business sector, it isn't going to happen. Politicians are generally the kiss of death for this sort of thing.
You are right that it sure seems like any tech job opportunities other than Rackspace in San Antonio seem to be off the radar. As I said, I see few postings and have had few recruiter contacts for jobs down there. Conversely I get probably more recruiter contacts about positions in the DFW area than Austin and close to as many from the Houston area (up until Ike anyway, its been understandably pretty quiet from over there lately). That's really all I have to go on, and as I mentioned, I realize its somewhat flawed given my likely limited marketability to defense oriented employers due to not having clearance. However, I would also guess that San Antonio must have adequate supplies of techies relative to the number of opportunities or there would be more job postings and more recruiter activity.
Security clearances aren't always needed, and if they want you badly enough, they'll help you get one. But that's not the point. Also not the point is that I came to Texas and San Antonio, not of my own volition, but because my wife wanted to go home. And also not the point is that I brought my company (and thus my current job) with me.
The point is being open to exploring opportunities for collaboration, and seeing where it leads.
I have no idea if anything can come of it. I don't have the answers. But that's not the point.
I realize that security clearances aren't always needed, and that it may be possible to get one, however in a soft job market it seems like few companies with positions that do need them are willing to go to the effort because of ample supply of people who already have them. Exceptions appear to be mostly for people who have been cleared in the past and just need to be re-cleared which is generally considered to be more of a 'sure thing'. At this point with the mess my credit was left in due to all the bills resulting from my first wife's illness and passing (loss of income, un-reimbursed medical bills, etc) I doubt I could get cleared. Its not that I have defaulted on anything, just that I've been badly overextended and am only coming close after 2 1/2 years of working on it of getting to the point where I'm seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. But I'm still on shaky ground and I've been told that is a very bad thing when it comes to getting cleared.
I had kind of gotten the impression that you came here for family reasons. Was your choice of San Antonio over Austin because that is where your wife's family is, or for logistical reasons related to your company? If you have to travel a lot I have seen that air fare is generally cheaper out of San Antonio.
I'm certainly open to exploring opportunities for collaboration, but I am in not in any place to be able to lead them. I have a lot more questions than answers but you've probably already noticed that.
My wife's family is in SA, so the decision was made for me. My company is portable (it goes wherever I go). My management team is all geographically dispersed. When I finally raise this round of venture capital, I will hire people in Texas - program management, engineering (manufacturing or logistics), maybe software, and sales...and at least for the immediate future, will report to my Chief Engineer who is located on Long Island.
As for travel, San Antonio is not an advantage. Air travel from Austin is often better and I will drive up just for the sake of a better schedule or cheaper fare.
With the possibility that my company does not get the venture infusion it needs, I will consult...and travel to wherever the client is located (Austin, Atlanta, Arlington Va., SA etc.)
Its nice that you've got that much flexibility. You should have no trouble finding the people you need here in Texas, from what I've seen we've got copious quantities of talent around here.
I've actually driven to San Antonio a couple of times because I found significantly cheaper fares from there, but it may just depend on the particular situation. Of course DFW and Houston typically both have significantly more choices than anywhere else in Texas.
I'm unfortunately in the situation where as long as my regular FTE job lasts I pretty much have to stick with it for the time being. I can't afford to gamble on consulting/contracting work because I have no reserve to cushion between gaps if I wasn't able to find really steady work.
Everyone's situation is different. Mine was somewhat unique in many ways. My flexibililty comes from having extraordinary people already on my team that makes distance an irrelevant factor.
Most times, the airfare form San Antonio vs Austin is about the same (even when I factor in the drive tiem and cost) but Austin often has had better schedules (at least for what I needed). And since I live on the N. Central part of San Antonio, travel to Austin is that much easier (maybe 15 miles less actually).
As for risk taking...that's an entirely different topic. I wouldn't ever do again what I've done, and yet, from where I sit now, it might actually end up being worth it...we'll see soon, but its absolutely not time to "light the Red Auerbach."
Remember, Datapoint was founded in SA as well, but you are right. SA is NOT one of the first 25 cities I think of when it comes to high tech. Actually, Allentown PA is higher on the list because at least AT&T Semi has a plant there!
For about 20 years I was on the board of the Central Texas Section of the Society of Plastics Engineers. For nearly half of that time I lived in San Antonio and have been in Austin since. We held our meetings in San Antonio, Austin and San Marcos, and had regular attendance from all three cities, usually with car pooling from whichever was the farthest from a particular meeting. At that time we viewed Austin-to-San-Antonio as one market, at least in our industry. The idea that business in central Texas should consider this as one market is not new.
It is true that industry in San Antonio is far different from Austin. When I lived there I worked for Datapoint Corp., a computer manufacturer, but when that dried up there wasn't a lot to choose from without going to quite different industries that didn't value my experience, such as aviation (Swearingen) or soft drink dispensing (Lancer). Datapoint exes either started small companies (such as Datarace), went to SwRI, or left town, as I did. Since I left new players such as Rackspace and Toyota have come on the scene, but the plastics industry has disappeared.
As for meetings in San Marcos to allow equal participation by folks in SA and Austin, I would like to see that.
Not new...never succeeded before. Why?
The fact is that with San Antonio sprawling northward and Austin moving southward, the twain are eventually going to blend. It doesn't take too many cross overs or commutes to recognize that time is accelerating.
For all we know, there will be "political enlightenment" and someday, in the not oo distant future there will be light rail travel. Who knows? Things change, people change, and attitudes change.
I've made a point of treating Austin and Door64 as an opportunity to meet a new group of people, all prospective technical resources as well as consulting clients. Then again, I'm originally from NY and an hour commute is meaningless to me.
For those bootstrappers among you. There are a lot of prospective first customers in San Antonio who are much closer than Houston or the Metroplex. The industries when combined with those in Austin represent as broad a range as in those other two cities. You're leaving out of the list USAA, one of the major insurance companies in the US, Univision, the medical school, major retail franchisers, to name a few. Those military guys retire after 20 or 30 years and pursue some very interesting technology. Maybe when Matt comes up with a meeting there ought to be a some sort of orientation held by tech leaders in each city for the people from the other city before we break for the libations and talk. If you invest the time for the drive, an extra hour before the festivities would be reasonable and would help in the networking.
Great suggestions, and yes, my list left out a few large companies. I'm not a "leader" but clearly one who wants to see this happen. My friend and associate who runs the Tech Connexus (a 501c3 by the way) is serious about looking at the bridge. The cross-orientation is a good idea too.
The key, in my opinion, is to avoid politics and politicians.
Re: the break-out for tech leaders, that's an excellent idea. Please be thinking about the "who" for these leaders, both in Austin and San Antonio. If this event can come to fruition, I will be soliciting input.
Planning meeting first...leaders second.
I all the business I even did in high-tech, the ranks of the cities are as follows:
Dallas, Sherman, Austin, Houston, Plano, Richardson, Round Rock, Irving, Fort Worth, and somewhere around 25 San Antonio! Hell, I think even with the military down their, I hardly did ANY business in SA.
As a consultant you may never do business in SA. Why do you think I'm coming up to Austin so often? or traveling to other states? The issue remains groups of un/under employed IT people in Austin and empty seats in SA.
Regardless of where you've done business, I highlighted a report while you were away (Best Performing Cities - 2008)
Texas performed particularly well in the 2008 index, with six cities placing in the top twenty-five large metros (more than any other state). Thanks to its heavy concentration of oil and gas operations, Texas was a clear beneficiary of rising energy prices and renewed activity in the industry. Additionally, several Texas metros received a boost from continued strength in technology hardware and services. While the housing downturn has been severe in states such as Florida, California, Arizona, and Nevada, Texas has not experienced a similar decline.
The list?
Provo-Orem, UT
Raleigh-Cary, NC
Salt Lake City, UT
Austin-Round Rock, TX
Huntsville, AL
Wilmington, NC
McAllen-Edinburg-Mission, TX
Tacoma, WA*
Olympia, WA
Charleston-North Charleston-Summerville, SC
Orlando-Kissimmee, FL
Bakersfield, CA
Killeen-Temple-Fort Hood, TX
Lafayette, LA
San Antonio, TX
Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX
Seattle-Bellevue-Everett, WA*
Ogden-Clearfield, UT
Myrtle Beach-North Myrtle Beach-Conway, SC
Greeley, CO
Durham, NC
Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro-Franklin, TN
Dallas-Plano-Irving, TX*
Savannah, GA
Des Moines-West Des Moines, IA
San Antonio was 15th up from 43rd; Austin 4th up from 20th. Debate the methodology or the source, but this what the one report said.
Now I really don't trust that study... I just noticed that Des Moines, IA, is on the list. There has to be something wrong with their methodology, because that place is deadsville -- the kind of place that you try to gnaw your leg off to escape from. It certainly has nothing at all in common with the rest of the cities on that list. I spent 10 years in that gawd forsaken wart on the buttocks of the universe and I still have family in that area and know a lot of people who live up there. As much as I complain about lack of opportunity around here, Austin is a virtual garden of eden by comparison.
Perhaps so, but:
Des Moines–West Des Moines, Iowa, came in at 25th, after placing 58th last year. The Des Moines economy has been growing slightly above the U.S. average in terms of employment and wages. The area’s high-tech output outstripped the national average by 6.3 percentage points. Professional, scientific, and technical services generated more than 1,900 jobs between 2002 and 2007, the period examined in our five-year indicators. Machinery manufacturing has grown at an average annual rate of almost 4.0 percent over that period. The metro area is also a hub for financial services and insurance, including key players such as Wells Fargo and Principal Financial Group. The credit-intermediation activities industry is almost three times more concentrated in Des Moines than in the nation as a whole; this industry has contributed more than 4,200 jobs during the five-year period we examined.
Ah, the power of door64.com! I have heard from two folks about this discussion group, and I wish that we continue the dialog. Here's what we need to make it work:
1) More communication on what each community is doing to promote tech.
2) A rapid rail system between Austin and San Antonio that really works like Marta in Atlanta or the metro rail in D.C.
3) Getting over the politics of each area. We San Antonio types tend to think of you Austin folks as refugees from the Woodstock revolution. And, a lot of Austinites think of us as a big military town with a conservative bent.
Having lived in both communities, I can attest there is a lot of similarity between both. With time and communication, it could truly work. Like my friend NY2TX, I often make the drive to the northern part of Austonio.
The point about politics is a good one. I think a lot of people paint each area with a pretty broad brush. While Austin has a large and vocal liberal majority, there is also a strong libertarian leaning contingent, especially amongst techies. San Antonio has a reputation for being more conservative due mostly to its military influences, however I suspect that the reality is also probably not quite so simple.
I don't think the rail system will be a reality anytime soon -- that is something to leave for the politicians to lay out $$$ for, but I think that the first point about communication is something that can be worked on in the private sector and progress could be made sooner. Obviously we've already got some fledgling efforts going at an individual grassroots level. I'm not sure what could be done to expand that, what resources are needed, etc. Probably the biggest thing is I don't have many contacts in San Antonio that haven't already found there way here.
Communication and dialog, and a belief that the business community knows how to do it (not excluding the political realm, but not wanting to be driven by it)...they can take the credit eventually if they need to.
Yes, Door64 is a platform. And what we are doing in San Antonio to promote the development of science and technology and to "spread the word" are important elements to it. Also, the fact that Technology Connexus is already a 501(c)3 may be an asset to be mined.
A rapid rail system between San Antonio and Austin? In whose lifetime? Of course, it is a great idea and the time may finally be upon us with the cost of gasoline now almost certian to stay above $2.50/gallon forever (I'm being very optimistic). But can you imagine being able to take a monorail from downtown Austin (Congress, but with a few local stops) to San Antonio (and not to forget about San Marcos and New Braunfels along the way). Rapid transit up and down I35 is probably a dream. Collaboration and cooperation isn't a dream...it need to happen.
Besides, this thread started with a very real article (even if it did come from WOAI). Its going to happen. The question is who will guide it...business or politics?
What are the common grounds?
Question: What are the areas of commonality between our two great cities?
I'll leave the question open.
Common grounds - interesting question.
It seems most discussions of Austin vs. San Antonio focus on the differences. Perhaps that's because in so many ways they're similar and folks are trying to differentiate.
Having come to central Texas from the Midwest (and New Jersey), and having lived in both Austin and San Antonio, I have to say that for day-to-day living they are far more alike than either is like other parts of the country. The climates and terrain are nearly identical; and the friendliness of the people is similar, as is the growth rate and the influx of "outsiders". There are even a surprising number of people who commute between the two cities on a daily basis and therefore have a foot in both.
I belong to and have been active in Great Dane clubs in both cities, and, though I find the Alamo club to be friendlier, overall I see dog people in both cities interested in the same issues and relating to their pets very similarly.
I've lived in both, and was equally happy both places.
--Jerry Dunham
A here I thought that I was "talking" about IT and software (and attendant security)...I had no idea I was talking about Great Danes...LOL
I guess this thread has gone to the dogs.
Actually, I thought we were discussing the cultural differences between the two places. I think bits and bytes are pretty much the same in both. There's just a lot more software industry in Austin. From an IT perspective, SA is more of a small town than Austin.
--Jerry Dunham
SA is more of a small town? for IT? Really? Final answer? That, Sir, is what we are about to learn about. Even if/after you drop Rackspace from the equation (which is hard to do in the total picture, but anyway), there are "small" issues like USAA, Advanced Data Recovery, Frontline Systems, and the various branches of the military (not every job requires security clearances)...and then there is the manufacturing base etc.
As for cultural differences. No doubt they exist. The concentration of advanced degrees in Austin notwithstanding, and the fact that San Antonio is more than twice the population, SA is probably more of a small town mentality...both good and bad (but largely one of the reasons why SA is good for me).
Buti fyou peal back the skin a bit, there are probably more similarities than differences.
If this thread is really for discussing the differences its too limiting for the purpose Matt started the topic. So let's use the differences so that they reinforce each other to form a bond, like in a marriage. From that we'll find what the "couple" likes to do together. (And of course, there'll be some boys' or girls' night outs.)
The purpose is to explore common ground and differences...to better understand the "gap." Hi Bill! I'm supposed to call you (Matt S.).
PS: Check the first post in this thread.
Matt,
The topic is at the top and I agree with you that it is both, plus what is should be done to bring the Central Texas corridor together. I consider the thread as the next second level above this which is "A here I thought that I was"
My mistake, but the result is the same. Steps are underway despite busy schedules to explore the process. The "dog" reference was an inserted thought. Exploring the synergies between the two close proximity cities to link the (un or under) utliized IT talent in Austin with the unfilled jobs in San Antonio could be a first step.
Good idea.
Guys,
I am finishing an article on the convergence between Austin and San Antonio for Austin Business District that is due in about two weeks. May I have your permission to use some of the comments generated in the article?
As for you, Jdunham, the comment about the dogs was still on track for me. You noted the similarities between Austinites and San Antonio folks. I got it, and I didn't think you needed to apologize for "going to the dogs."
Matt Scherer
Matt's Genovese other brother "Matt"
Seeking whose permission? A number of people added to these threads. There is a real program being formulated on paper that might form the basis of "soon to be had meetings and discussions." There are ongoing background discussions (even the one you and I had on Friday) that could be pre-empted by a premature release of an article. Just my opinion, but still.
I have no problem with my postings to this discussion being republished elsewhere. I long ago learned not to post anything for a few to see that I minded being seen by all. OTOH, if it's premature you may want to be careful just how far the article goes. I wouldn't want discussion on this forum to die because people were afraid that their words would end up in places where they didn't want them.
Has anyone but me noticed that we're putting more energy into discussing discussing than we are into the original subject?
--Jerry Dunham
Its a sensitive political subject. There is a meeting in the planning. EOM
Yes
Personally I think that an article prior to the planning meeting is premature. Other than that, NY2TX = Jay Fraser, former NY'er and now a happy camper in San Antonio.
I'm sure Matt has a committment to that article. I'm sure that the planning meeting you're planning could be helped by Matt's article if you coordinate with him.
There are more than one effort to bring San Antonio and Austin together. Perhaps, the article will bring more people to the table.
Nothing was mentioned about other efforts when this one was discussed on Friday. What was discussedin that conversation was the political climate surrounding such an effort.
Actually, I stand corrected because this was included in the first entry of this subject:
Closer SA-Austin Ties Again Sought - Two fast growing cities are combining, the key is how will that merger work
Now, I mentioned this subject to one of my
friends yesterday (Friday) after I heard the
radio report. Personally, I believe that if the
politicians try to make it happen, the chances
of it happening go down. If the business
communities do it less formally, it has a better
chance of succeeding. It is the subject of an
email I sent just this past Thursday (you know
who you are).
So, yes, there is an "official" (read that as political approach to the issue). There is nothing wrong with an article being pubbed about the "effort" once the planning meeting has occurred. Referencing this lengthy discussion in an article before the meetings will not help it. It would do nothing but "tip the hand."
What radio report? Is there a link you can embed about it?
Why should one worry about it if we "tip the hand".
I do agree we shouldn't be concerned about what the politicians. I'm skeptical of politicians and chambers of commerce, they are usually counterproductive.
A newspaper article about the radio report was posted.
Closer SA-Austin Ties Again Sought - Two fast growing cities are combining, the key is how will that merger work
To avoid counterproductive actions, it is better to have the planning meeting before publicizing the effort. Busy schedules of the two organizations involved kept that from happening last week, but an email was sent. Hopefully, a discussion will occur this week.
I've only been a member here a short time and this is my first post, but I think I can help some people out. I come from the "tech business" sector if that helps to clarify my standpoint.
I want to do an event that will help shed light on the current disconnection of San Antonio/Austin especially in the IT sector. I'm a native of San Antonio and grown to love this town, but my wish is to see more IT business. I'm aware of a lot of new initiatives happening within San Antonio including ones that are made to help attract/retain IT professionals in the San Antonio area.
Currently I finally finishing my BBA in Info Sys at the University of the Incarnate Word and helped to form a chapter on campus from the Assoc. of Info. Tech. Professionals. I want to host an event that will help bring together companies, ideas, tech, business, and essentially create relationships. It can be a banquet style to entice Business professionals or more casual if we are leaning toward hardcore IT (not saying IT people don't dress up!).
There is plenty of Small Business help in San Antonio from the Economic Development Department, Small Business Administration, SATAI, and other areas. I want to note that there are IT jobs that are needed for non-IT businesses that are scaling from Small to Medium and Medium to Large. San Antonio may not have the biggest IT companies, but we have plenty of businesses who need skilled IT pros. I've heard there is an oversaturation of IT talent in Austin and I've known a few friends to come down here. Our schools in this area are not focused on IT but rather medical areas.
If anyone wants to create an event and create a board/initiative that will help push this idea along, I can help. Whether connecting business/IT people in San Antonio to people in Austin, or vice versa, I know enough people here in San Antonio that can help the initiative. I'm not sure whether I should leave my email address here, but anyone who is serious about this idea can email me directly at rortega007@gmail.com (I'll give my personal email later depending if I get any spam!).
Note: I need responses quickly, because I can schedule an event for a nice price as early as next Spring. This would give amble time to advertise, collect sponsorships, and of course event planning/mgmt.
Richard Ortega
If there are really a lot of employers in San Antonio that need IT talent then they should find a way to advertise in the Austin market, because right now there is definitely a perception up here that there aren't many opportunities down there.
Also one of the reasons that Austin has a huge glut of people is the constant influx of SF/SV bay area refugees. Maybe San Antonio could start recruiting some of those people to move there instead of Austin. The hard part would be the political aspects... Because San Antonio is perceived as more "Texas" (read as politically conservative) than Austin, a lot of Californians are afraid they wouldn't be comfortable there. A lot of those people are particularly anti-military. When talking to Californians, people involved in recruiting for San Antonio should probably emphasize the fun aspects of the city... Riverwalk, El Mercado, Six Flags, Sea World, The Spurs, etc., and specifically ignore anything related to the military.
Tacos and high technology
San Antonio is more than tacos and tecate. It may be perceived as conservative, but 3 of the 4 Members of the current House of Representatives for the area are Democrats. As for the military, why would anyone ignore the military? Its good business. So is aerospace. So is environmental. So is cyber. So is manufacturing. So is biotech. And if the Californians are taking Texan jobs, "then maybe we should close our borders" (< laughing >)
I think we need to develop ideas about what would work at the technology grass roots level. Until something positive and rewarding is institutionalized, political actions are just hot air. There is no reason to worry about talking about something before some sort of planning meeting happens among the politicos. If there is something that politically tenuous, it won't happen anyway.
Now what are those ideas. Mr. Ortega has volunteered. Now all he needs is a good idea that would get the techies and tech business folk together that sustains. I'm sure when that idea is found there'll be many more who will pitch in.
The idea already exists and is being acted upon. The program already exists and will be discussed. The planning meeting will occur shortly. Respectfully, Richard is not the only one who has volunteered. I'm lunching with him this week. EOM